The Ageism Roundtable
The funny thing about AGEISM is that if health is on our side, we will all get old. Isn’t it in all of our best interests to make society & the workplace inclusive?
I began Fire and Forte when I turned 40 years old and rather than feeling past it, I felt better than ever. At complete odds to what I’d been led to believe by society.
Some members of the Fire and Forte crew got together to discuss the topic of ageism. The goal? Get beyond the headlines & share real-life experiences with the hope of coming up with relevant ideas to drive change. The conversation did not disappoint.
“There's an element of shock I am still thriving, working and having fun at 50” Katy Graczer
Health and wellness is something many now try to adopt in their lifestyle. When I first interviewed Katy Graczer for Fire and Forte, she talked about the importance of putting your own oxygen mask on so that you can help others.
Getting older can mean more focus is put on protecting your energy and well-being. Many women I have spoken to have become ferocious in their self care. Many also struggle to get that time. Anna Leibel shared how mindful she is of how she spends her time - what she does with it and who she spends it with. Using your knowledge of yourself and your needs can help find what works for you - and can keep you thriving.
Jennifer Coolidge “It’s not over until you’re dead”
“Being at uni again feels a real privilege, I am really enjoying learning something new and challenging myself” Anna Leibel
A common theme I have found as people get older is a love of learning. Many have studied PhD’s, one studied rocket science, another completed a law degree at 40. An innate human thirst for knowledge and the experience of what truly sparks our interest means learning as we get older takes on a new meaning. Studying is far more appreciated later in life, as Anna says it’s a privilege.
All of my guests from Fire and Forte talk about learning with fresh enthusiasm and excitement - you wonder if such an attitude might make mature study more effective than back in our twenties.
“People are sometimes surprised by how much I know about tech and how much I enjoy it” Nicole Crivelli
Not only at the cutting edge of technology - Nicole Crivelli has worked on Blockchain and NFT projects and also in the adoption of cloud computing - but with a keen interest and a career in it, there was a discussion in the Roundtable around the notion tech is a younger persons game. Out of the attendees on the call, 4 worked in Tech - Nicole as a consultant and project manager, Katy in sales at a Silicon Valley based EduTech platform, Danika as a leader at the groundbreaking social platform Weare8 and Anna who had been voted one of the Top 50 Chief Technology Officers in Australia and now educates Boards on Cyber Security Risk.
Perhaps this is one surprise, how often are we seeing these women? The most well-known Tech founders are male - Jeff Bezos of Amazon, Jack Dorsey founder of Twitter, Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook. Sheryl Sandberg carries a significant load - the most famous woman arguably who was the Chief Operating Officer at Meta.
Gen Z being digitally native might mean they’re quicker with tech - Dalal Mansour, the make-up artist, shared with me over email that she often sought the help of younger colleagues when working on social media, they could do something in 2 minutes something that would take her 20 minutes.
What about applying the technology to achieve the goals or objectives of the business? That is likely to need coaching or guidance from someone with experience of the organisation.
It seems the depth of experience in both areas, and from both generations, are vital. And we should shout about the role played by older colleagues wherever we can to change the perception.
Sheryl Sandberg in action
“Your capability does not erode, it actually improves!” Danika Johnston
Similar to physical wellbeing, feeling mentally sharp is another, possibly surprising, discovery to ageing. Combining new skills with a depth of knowledge acquired over the years can make one's confidence and contribution in the workplace or elsewhere, very powerful. Whilst growing in knowledge, skills and confidence, the drive to make a difference means capability is rarely wasted - whether in work, via a side hustle or start-up, or a new hobby or interest. If you’re feeling at all lost, it's a good thing to reflect on - could I be using this knowledge, sharpness, energy somewhere else in the world?
Seems to me there is so much potential to make a difference, whilst also benefiting our own wellbeing.
“There's a disconnect - how good we feel as we age - and the absence of us in the media” Natasha Ginnivan
For all the misperceptions around getting older, there is an unfortunate truth that ageism is out there and having a detrimental effect to many.
We discussed media representation of women over 50 in the Roundtable with Jules Brooke sharing stats from Geena Davis Institute of Gender in Media. Smart, funny, thriving, but featured in less than 4% of media globally, women over 50 are not seeing their amazingness reflected back to them. The good news is that progress is being made, Natasha Ginnivan shared her love of the show Hack featuring Jean Smart, the podcast Wiser than me & Nicole Crivelli referenced the MamaMia podcast 456 celebrating what it is to be a woman in her 40’s, 50’s and 60’s.
MECCA, the beauty brand, was one mentioned for its inclusion of women over 40 - seeing grey hair and mature skin makes the cosmetics store feel more like ‘a place for us’ - inclusion that makes sense for society, and business.
“I do think ageism is everywhere - we need to prop each other up” Jules Brooke
Ageism is not just a women's issue of course and the Roundtable discussed views and also research around how the different genders tend to cope with age and related transitions. Where might men and women use their strengths together to manage the tougher parts of ageing, adjusting to retirement for instance?
Propping each other up in the workplace, and outside, is crucial. The founders of community groups, a number of the Fire and Forte crew have built networks to support women in work and outside,, from She’s the Boss (Jules Brooke), to the Women’s Business Network & AusMumPreneur (Peace Mitchell) to Middle Management (Katy Graczer), these networks help to bring women together for the common good. The provision of support & the company of others who are in a similar boat could be invaluable in dealing with the effects of ageism. It takes a village, as they say.
We did not venture further into men and women out of work due to ageism, but I think this topic, and what we do about it is worth returning to. We need to be in it together.
“I think flexibility and individuality is important in the workplace” Charmaine Dhalwanth
As many countries tackle productivity challenges, policies have begun to emerge to persuade older people back to work - Laura Shimili raised the UK’s policy to bring back the over 55’s. It prompted the Fire and Forte Roundtable to brainstorm what the workplace should or could look like to be age diverse to benefit all, and to aid a healthy transition to retirement.
There is more awareness now that retiring suddenly can be a shock to the system. Reconsidering how a role might look is a useful exercise - whether raising a family, caring for elderly parents, or simply being ready to slow down from the 9-5, a more flexible work model may prevent losing workers sooner than anyone wants.
“Intergenerational teams perform better” Natasha Ginnivan
Quoting research, Natasha Ginnivan stated the benefit of generational diversity in the workplace. In Tech, Katy Graczer agreed collaboration with younger generations was one of the things she enjoyed the most about work. Learning from one another can be energising.
Mentoring has mutual benefit. Many of the Roundtable participants are mentors with Danika Johnston saying it was one factor that kept her sharp, learning from others but also helping to build work ethic and a focus on meaningful experience in a market that had become skewed with large salary expectations. Charmaine Dhalwanth agreed that she felt she had a duty to pass on knowledge.
Dalal Mansour, built on the social media point made earlier - whereas younger colleagues may be great at social media, Dalal’s career had required building communication skills and rapport ‘in real life’ - and this ability with clients and on set was something she could coach others on.
Hannah is joined by Jules Brooke, Danika Johnston, Nicole Crivelli, Natasha Ginnivan and Katy Graczer
“Holding a mirror up to your own personal bias is important” Anna Leibel
We all do it, accidentally of course, but spotting where you may have made an assumption about an older person or even about the name of someone being ‘an old persons name” is what matters.
Growing up in the culture you have, if this has included a representation or misrepresentation of older people, it would be no surprise if you had an unconscious bias. Recognising we are in a period of change and then making proactive changes is a logical step - it may not have been done before,, but it doesn’t mean it cannot be done.
Jules remarked “we are breaking barriers” and that is a helpful reminder - many people's parents and grandparents didn’t look how we looked or did what we did at this age.
“It’s a gift, We need to make the most of the years ahead and our health” Laura Shimili
Gratitude for good health and the years ahead seem a helpful approach to ageing on a personal level. All Roundtable participants were motivated to make the most of their lives with such an insight - from travel, learning, side hustles or well-being. For those who had had children, the slog that was juggling family and work - and also the pressure to return to work in the days before maternity leave was standard - was remembered vividly.
“Now is our time” many agreed.
Let’s be the change then, shall we?
The Fire and Forte Roundtable covered good ground. We also felt we only skimmed the surface.
Below is a list of initial suggestions around how to navigate ageing and ageism - but not an exhaustive one.
Individually.
Reflect - what is your own self-perceptions of ageing? Where did they come from?
Spot moments of bias you might have, you can begin to question beliefs
Seek out the podcasts, TV shows and brands that embrace all ages, helping you form a diet of more positive & accurate depictions of age
Ask for better! From brands, retailers, ask where the older faces are or question how they are being portrayed. See a company doing it well? Tell them that too!
Workplace.
Visibility - ensure all ages and their achievements are celebrated, especially in areas such as Tech and women over 40 and 50 in business.
Let’s Talk - Why not have your own Roundtable? Looking at making this solution focused could be easier than sharing personal experiences. “How do we become a more age-diverse workplace” one working title. Even better if different ages feel comfortable sharing their experiences, and a commitment can be made afterwards to support change where needed.
Mentoring - Make the most of experience and foster a culture of mentoring. Encouraging this at your organisation could look like a formal mentoring programme or simply of raising the profile of it’s benefits. Informal mentoring can work either way generationally - asking a younger digitally native colleague for some time might just lead the way for them to ask the other way too.
Flexibility - what work models are available at your workplace, can different ones be tested? Ask the question. Be prepared to test or trial and look at roles in different ways. Wouldn’t it be great to have an older person come in a few days a week, utilise their experience.
Proactive change - A culture of age diversity means hiring people of all ages based on capability to do the job. Ensuring no CV is omitted due to age or extensive experience may mean training internally and policies are put into place to deter this from happening.
External programmes could include thinking of the projects or roles where you’d most value experience and proactively seeking older candidates (via advertising, job boards or recruiters). Brainstorm how this looks in your organsation.
One watch out - never assume anyone might be considering retirement!
Finally, supporting and encouraging one another will is a necessity - and the basis on mankind.
No shame here. We all age. We should celebrate it. Society is just catching up.
